Bobby C

First the article, then my thoughts. Article can be found at
http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/...1/APN/705011707
There is also a link on the blog to your right.

Appeals court upholds ruling that poker is game of chance


By MIKE BAKER
Associated Press Writer
RALEIGH, N.C. | Poker is mostly a game of chance - not skill - making it illegal to bet items of value when playing the card game in North Carolina, the state Court of Appeals said Tuesday.

In an unanimous ruling, the three-judge panel agreed that a skilled player can tip the odds in his favor but said the player "is always subject to defeat at the turn of a card."

State law makes it a misdemeanor for any person or organization to operate a game of chance where players wager money, property or other items of value. But in 2004, Howard Fierman sought to open a poker club in Durham County and later sued when Durham County District Attorney Jim Hardin said it would be illegal.

Attorneys for Fierman argued that poker was a game of skill instead of chance. In addition, the attorneys compared poker to golf, saying that a weekend golfer might beat a professional on one hole through luck but that skill would eventually be the determining factor.

"Anyone who doesn't think that poker is a game of skill hasn't played poker with skilled players," said Marcus Hill, a Durham attorney who filed the original lawsuit but wasn't involved in the appeal. "It's sad that North Carolina hasn't moved into the 21st century."

Four expert witnesses, including Roy Cooke, a professional poker player from Las Vegas, testified that a skilled poker player can use strategy to improve his odds over the course of a game.

But Richard Thornell, an officer for the North Carolina Alcohol Law Enforcement Division, argued that while skill may play a role, luck will ultimately prevail.

The appeals court agreed that poker is "both a game of skill and chance," but said that the role of luck was too powerful to ignore.

"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," wrote judge Ann Marie Calabria. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."

***

First ground rule for this discussion: You don't need to convince us that poker is a game of skill. The only thing to discuss here is, how do you convince someone who is not familiar with the game?

I wish they had called me as a witness. Or better yet, David Sklansky, who came up with the argument that I would've made, which is this:

"If the game were all luck, it would be impossible to lose on purpose."

To me, this speaks volumes. I'm 100% certain I could dump all my chips to my 8-year-old daughter, and no run of luck could thwart me.

My biggest problem with the court's decision was this line:

...the player "is always subject to defeat at the turn of a card."

Well then, the cops better gear up to raid the next Carolina Panthers home game, because the NFL is not a game of skill if a team "is always subject to defeat at the bounce of a fumble."

FullofBullets

What a joke

WOW, just wow...

10 of Diamonds

To anyone that doesn't play poker, any game that involves a deck of cards will always be a game of luck.

checkthestack

LOL, how can a game that has so much math involved in it be ruled as a game of chance? This just shows most people just ignore reality and stick to what they've learned long ago.

__________________
Slow Play = Death

Poker is easy

DOAJOKER

I won a ten dollar ST SNG by trying to lose. I had to leave and went allin every hand and ended up winning. The headsup opponent said "The only thing I regret is that i lose to someone like you"

Pogo27

Over the course of a very short period of time, poker appears to be luck-based.

You make plays because you know it's statistically the best play and if you make the same play thousands of times, you'll approach consistency and, assuming it's the correct play, profit.

Over the course of a short period of time (a hand, an hour, a day, a week, a month), the game appears to be luck based, but only because the sample size is not big enough.

So, whether or not you believe poker is luck-based depends only on the sample size you're talking about.

I, for one, don't believe in luck.

Bobby C

All I can say, DOAJ, is that you suck at losing.

Put me in a 1-table SNG, and I'll lay 100-1 odds against me winning it. I'll use a more sophisticated strategy than pushing every hand.

canadiancoates

Well there is alot of luck cause my 15 and 12 year old sons beat me often. Although they could be keen students as they had a damn good teacher.

Kid_Aaron

I did the same thing one tourney. Had to leave. announced in going all in every hand need to leave.

Went thru and got the table to fold twice. Got called with junk, but i had better junk. I won three all ins and knocked 3 ppl out. Ended up leaving, and came in third just by sitting out and getting blinded out.