Let me paint the picture. This guy is an awesome player stats wise. He's made quite a bit of money playing tournament poker. He's literally raised my BB everytime it folds around to me. 4 times or something like that. Here's the HH:

PokerStars Game #10757171340: Tournament #54512144, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2007/07/03 - 23:24:49 (ET)
Table '54512144 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: coolhand9876 (2844 in chips)
Seat 5: Tee Gee 88 (8666 in chips)
Seat 6: jeff914 (6272 in chips)
Seat 7: FilthyRaven (9359 in chips)
Seat 8: ThePayne04 (4840 in chips)
Seat 9: helpme_17 (7577 in chips)
coolhand9876: posts the ante 25
Tee Gee 88: posts the ante 25
jeff914: posts the ante 25
FilthyRaven: posts the ante 25
ThePayne04: posts the ante 25
helpme_17: posts the ante 25
FilthyRaven: posts small blind 100
ThePayne04: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ThePayne04 [4h 4c]
helpme_17: folds
coolhand9876: folds
Tee Gee 88: folds
jeff914: folds
FilthyRaven: raises 800 to 1000
ThePayne04: raises 3815 to 4815 and is all-in
FilthyRaven: calls 3815
*** FLOP *** [9c Th Ac]
ThePayne04 said, "lmao"
*** TURN *** [9c Th Ac] [5s]
*** RIVER *** [9c Th Ac 5s] [Qc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FilthyRaven: shows [2c As] (a pair of Aces)
ThePayne04: shows [4h 4c] (a pair of Fours)
FilthyRaven collected 9780 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9780 | Rake 0
Board [9c Th Ac 5s Qc]
Seat 1: coolhand9876 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Tee Gee 88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: jeff914 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: FilthyRaven (small blind) showed [2c As] and won (9780) with a pair of Aces
Seat 8: ThePayne04 (big blind) showed [4h 4c] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 9: helpme_17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I got my money in ahead but felt I really should of had more to shove a healthy stack into this maniac. Thoughts? :o

I don't really understand the logic of calling your all-in with A2 os. Was he hoping that you had KQ or something? My gut feeling is that he was in the 'don't care' mode since he's playing at the stake way below his 'avg stake', and got lucky. There is just no reason what so ever for him to make this call in my opinion.


Let me paint the picture. This guy is an awesome player stats wise. He's made quite a bit of money playing tournament poker. He's literally raised my BB everytime it folds around to me. 4 times or something like that. Here's the HH:

PokerStars Game #10757171340: Tournament #54512144, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2007/07/03 - 23:24:49 (ET)
Table '54512144 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: coolhand9876 (2844 in chips)
Seat 5: Tee Gee 88 (8666 in chips)
Seat 6: jeff914 (6272 in chips)
Seat 7: FilthyRaven (9359 in chips)
Seat 8: ThePayne04 (4840 in chips)
Seat 9: helpme_17 (7577 in chips)
coolhand9876: posts the ante 25
Tee Gee 88: posts the ante 25
jeff914: posts the ante 25
FilthyRaven: posts the ante 25
ThePayne04: posts the ante 25
helpme_17: posts the ante 25
FilthyRaven: posts small blind 100
ThePayne04: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ThePayne04 [4h 4c]
helpme_17: folds
coolhand9876: folds
Tee Gee 88: folds
jeff914: folds
FilthyRaven: raises 800 to 1000
ThePayne04: raises 3815 to 4815 and is all-in
FilthyRaven: calls 3815
*** FLOP *** [9c Th Ac]
ThePayne04 said, "lmao"
*** TURN *** [9c Th Ac] [5s]
*** RIVER *** [9c Th Ac 5s] [Qc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FilthyRaven: shows [2c As] (a pair of Aces)
ThePayne04: shows [4h 4c] (a pair of Fours)
FilthyRaven collected 9780 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9780 | Rake 0
Board [9c Th Ac 5s Qc]
Seat 1: coolhand9876 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Tee Gee 88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: jeff914 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: FilthyRaven (small blind) showed [2c As] and won (9780) with a pair of Aces
Seat 8: ThePayne04 (big blind) showed [4h 4c] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 9: helpme_17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I got my money in ahead but felt I really should of had more to shove a healthy stack into this maniac. Thoughts? :o

I would have pretty much made that play there too. You were short and a loose player (or a player that makes a move on you each time) made his standard raise into you.

You were short with a pocket pair. He made a marginal call and got lucky. with the short stack and a decent hand you had to make that. Or you folded you would have probably been into all in/fold mode and had to make a couple of risky moves within the next round anyway

IMHO I wasn't a shortstack. I was pushing to get this guy to leave me alone and lost sight of what I should have really been doing. I honestly think about 75% of the time I am shoving into a coin flip and I have too many chips to force one of those at this moment of the tournament. Dispite my read, I am pretty sure after thinking about it I played this hand incorrectly. :o

Well i may have played it incorrectly too then LOL

I do think him calling wasnt the best option and he should have layed it down. At best he was really a coin flip, or totally dominated. As you were the shortest but still werent in a position where you'd be shoving with any Q or K. I would have said you'd more than likely have two big cards or a PP. So him calling with a weak A isnt the best.

Sometimes someone pressures you and you decide to make a move that doesnt work out. As long as you learn from each situation.

Hey mate, im the player that in fact made that call and I must say that it was a bad one. As an ealrlier poster suggested my game definately did slip as I was playing at a lower level (this should be no excuse!) and I was tutoring a friend through a lower stakes tourney while quite drunk. Either way I would never usually make that call as I would always find my self in trouble... I think you made a solid play.. although with the blinds as they were there was no need for you to go all in, A re-raise would have indictaed a stronger hand as it look liek your trying to get value out of the hand your holding rather than an all in that seems to beg not to be called..
Anyway.. If it makes you feel better I won the tourney in the end, hitting the FT with half the total chips!
Keep making that play and you are on the right track.

Hey mate, im the player that in fact made that call and I must say that it was a bad one. As an ealrlier poster suggested my game definately did slip as I was playing at a lower level (this should be no excuse!) and I was tutoring a friend through a lower stakes tourney while quite drunk. Either way I would never usually make that call as I would always find my self in trouble... I think you made a solid play.. although with the blinds as they were there was no need for you to go all in, A re-raise would have indictaed a stronger hand as it look liek your trying to get value out of the hand your holding rather than an all in that seems to beg not to be called.. Anyway.. If it makes you feel better I won the tourney in the end, hitting the FT with half the total chips!
Keep making that play and you are on the right track.

Thanks for the replies Kid and FilthyRaven. FR I figured you made the call because you were playing below your level but I was completely sure. Once I pulled your OPR I noticed how good you are and figured you were probably messing around. :) I really like the suggestion you made which I bolded and ultimately I think it's what I'll take away from the hand. I don't post many hand histories but I think this one was def worth the time. :cool:

I'll definately keep in mind that bolded bit too.

Hopefully FR sticks around and adds another regular poster to the mix. We dont have as many people here, but i like the fact the replies seem to be much better and more helpful

I believe a push is better than a re-raise. You had 4800, blinds 100/200/25, 6-handed.. So M = 450, your M = 10.7.. That's a perfect re-steal stack...

I play it the same way as you, and I believe that's the best play.

I also don't hate the call w/ A2..

2150 in the pot, plus your 3815.. He was getting about 1.6 to 1 with A2, you had a perfectly sized re-steal stack, he'd been stealing your blind a lot. As long as he thinks you're smart enough to re-steal, A2 is a good hand in this situation. Your range is VERY wide if you are a smart, aggressive tourney player who knows how to use a re-steal.

IMO this is a clear fold pf with 44, ur hoping he'll fold (less likely with the 5* raise) for that money but ANY time he calls u ur either flipping or dominated. So pretty much ur making a 'stand' with 20bb for $1000 chips reward and being -ev when he calls.

My range to shove (reraise horrible) would be about 99+ / AJs+. With the blinds and stacks as they are i think this is just a spot where the big stack raiser has lots of leverage and u need to accept that / allow for it cause there isnt much profitable way of beating it without a hand, then when blinds go 150 / 300 ante u have a wider range where pushing 44 might be ok - in the mean time while ur waiting for 44 shove to be profitable at 150 300 you might pick up a premium anyways, shove earlier you exclude urself from getting that chance.

IMO this is a clear fold pf with 44, ur hoping he'll fold (less likely with the 5* raise) for that money but ANY time he calls u ur either flipping or dominated.

That's simply not true, he called with A2!


So pretty much ur making a 'stand' with 20bb for $1000 chips reward and being -ev when he calls.


1,000 chips is a lot. That's more than 20% of our stack. We have 10M, we aren't making a stand, we're making a move. And we're way ahead of the big stacks raising range if he was opening our blind every time.



My range to shove (reraise horrible) would be about 99+ / AJs+. With the blinds and stacks as they are i think this is just a spot where the big stack raiser has lots of leverage and u need to accept that / allow for it cause there isnt much profitable way of beating it without a hand, then when blinds go 150 / 300 ante u have a wider range where pushing 44 might be ok - in the mean time while ur waiting for 44 shove to be profitable at 150 300 you might pick up a premium anyways, shove earlier you exclude urself from getting that chance.

This is awful tournament strategy. You're going to get run over. I would much MUCH rather shove 44 w/ 10M than AA w/ 5M.

Ok maybe not any time but for the purpose of making the decision it's true.

Maybe I need to rethink the way I play this spot, I mean at higher levels than a $5.50 mtt I'd look to push it but at this level ur more likely to get ur 44 called and more likely to get a better opportunity than this to put ur stack on the line.

Ok maybe not any time but for the purpose of making the decision it's true.

Maybe I need to rethink the way I play this spot, I mean at higher levels than a $5.50 mtt I'd look to push it but at this level ur more likely to get ur 44 called and more likely to get a better opportunity than this to put ur stack on the line.

But you talk about it as if the goal is only to get the money in way ahead, regardless of how much we are getting in.. I'd rather flip when I have 10M than be way ahead when I have 5M..

Whatever dude keep shoving 44 with 20bb to 5* raises, 1000T is nothing, u either got 5k or 6k going into next blind level with blinds at 150/300 ante it is insignificant which u have vs. getting dominated so much, + it's not a choice between flipping now or later avoid flips altogether,

shoving the 44 is weak as, there are no antes no point at looking at pokerstove going awwww **** I'm 40% getting 3 to 1 (made up) it is not all about numbers and ranges and pot odds of course these matter but not in this instance with 44 cause the $1000 is so insignificant and flipping sux, there is no good reason to shove, the most positive outcome yeilds a return that doesn't do much for you, even tho u think it is cause it's 20% of ur stack lol did harrington say that was the right amount? - **** this spot let it go and look to double rather than muck around in a spot where he could well have a big hand just cause he raised the last two does not exclude him form getting good cards id even think more likely i love raising it up after a few with a monster and ppl start shoving on me with 44 lol.

I'm glad I posted this. It was a very tough spot vs. a good player. I think if I had to do it over again that based on my read I think it was a good shove. He was raising my blind every single time and I felt there was no way he'd overplay a big hand like that.

This isn't so much a math thing as it is a read play but I see your point bro, the math makes this a bad shove.